Correct political thought does not equal magical skill and ability (and vice versa)

On any given day, you can find some self-declared Big Name Occultist (or Magician, or Witch, or Shaman, or Mystic, or...I could go on for hours) loudly proclaiming that some respected or better known occultist said something that is politically wrong, and therefore is a Offender. This is followed by the BNO's own beloved supporters declaring that they will never buy another book by said Offender, will defriend them on Facebook, defollow them on other social media sites, and leave any forums moderated by such an evil Offender. And this is how it should be because the Offender cannot be a real occultist if they hold such erroneous political views.

How a numpty thinks Adeptship works vs the harsh reality.

Quite simply, there are some numpties that believe that Adeptship (or their tradition equivalent) means that one has the correct political views, is of the correct religion and virtue, and has a certain level of perceived magical skill (which can range from none at all to being able to raise the dead) that is always heavily advertised by those who have it.

In other words, as far as the Numpty is concerned, Adepts think exactly like they do. And that Adepts will give them cookies for being as brilliant as the Adepts are (if not fall over themselves bowing down to the Numpty's superior wisdom--for all numpties know that they are the most advanced magician and mystic in the world).

It is just too bad that it is easy to fake all three requirements if you are a sociopath. Just like voters fall for politicians who are not anything like they claim to be, numpties fall for and support occultists who are faking their political beliefs (or at least radically relabeling them for public consumption), would not know the mysteries of religion if they got bit in the butt by one, have vastly overstated their magical ability and knowledge, and have all the virtues of a Mars bar without all the tasty sugar.

Numpties prefer to have Adepts defined by these requirements, mainly because they themselves might be able to claim Adeptship someday if they only have to master their talking points, parroting the "correct" answers that their own future followers will go ape over.

Never mind the fact that there are some a**h***s who believe that Adeptship is rooted in actual initiationary experiences (such as actually undergoing the initiation rituals), arcane lore, and at least enough magical ability to hex one's way out of a wet paper bag. The opinions of a**h***s don't count, only the howling of the courageous wolves of occultism, who should never be mistaken for sheep, not alone the lemmings that the more dubious occult leaders treat them as.

Remember that real Adepts think exactly as you think they should.

Big Name Occultists would not be so upset about the Offenders, if they would only shut the f**k up and quit breathing. And the numpties would not be so upset if they did not desire one day to lead their own horde of lemmings. Because if there is one thing that an Offender is good at, it is not recognizing the true occult geniuses in their midst.

This lack of recognition is why Big Name Occultists have to tell you all the evil stuff that Offenders do, such as misreading the Bill of Rights, voting for the wrong politician, believing that sexual offenders have no place in the esoteric Orders (or politics for that matter) and deserve a good binding.

If the Big Name Occultists don't do this, the Numpty might accidentally start believing the other falsehoods that such Offenders spread, such as: pointing out that certain parties did not actually undergo the initiation rituals of their tradition, only know the mysteries of using a photocopier and bovine end-product generators, and quite frankly could not hex their way out of a wet paper bag if they had to.

If the Offenders were true occultists, they would totally agree with everything that the Big Name Occultist did. Sue your competition into extinction--fine. Rebel and claim that your teacher had no ethics (or rather the wrong ones)--excellent. Make up a totally bogus lineage and set of teachings--good god man, I must have some of that; take my money please!!!

Annoy someone important--buy this banned by BNO book.

The evil of Offenders is so dangerous that if the numpties don't scream bloody murder on their own, the Big Name Occultists would have to create lists of banned books, magazines, blogs, podcasts, videos, and websites that their followers are not allowed to read. And you can tell that the Big Name Occultist is protecting you because hey, if the Offender can't get their political ideas and religious beliefs in order, how could they possible know anything about the occult?

Or you could just presume that you already know everything.

And numpties are quite happy with this, for they know that they already know everything. There is nothing that an Offender can teach them. In fact, the only reason that the Numpty puts up with the Big Name Occultist is that they recognize the greatness of the the Numpty.

I am not saying this is why the occult world can't have nice things...

Now, I can hear you say, "Dear Uncle Morgan, you express political ideas all the time; surely you think people should agree with you."

Yeah, but they don't--that is why I have to keep repeating myself. Besides occasionally I am wrong about politics...because my magical skill and ability and evil magical lore gives me the exact level of knowledge about politics as it does about gasoline engines; in other words, none at all. Everything I know about politics came from watching my parents volunteer and canvas for political candidates and listening to my dad's comments about what we heard on talk show radio on long trips. That and watching Nixon announce that he was resigning (sad when your first memory of a President is of the forty-fourth worst President)...which made me believe that all politicians are corrupt in one fashion or another. And reading and watching stuff about politics. I had to work hard to know as little as I do about politics unlike Big Name Occultists who get a completely perfect and correct set of political and religious ideas in the same Cracker Jack box that they received their Grade of Most Advanced Occultist Ever from. 

Just like you should not judge my magical ability based on my politics, you should not judge my politics on how much I have suffered in the name of magic and the mysteries. I would still be a nasty evil witch even if I agreed with your political and religious opinions.

Besides I wanted to make a living as a newspaper columnist--but somehow ended up making jokes about occultists instead. (Honestly, I have no idea how it happened--one day, I realized that I had spent an hour comparing a Big Name Occultist to a novelty condom and was too lazy to hit Delete.) You wouldn't deny me my dreams, would you? If Emma Bombeck could make jokes about suburban life and raising a family and still have political opinions,  why can't I make jokes about the esoteric traditions and the strange people that I encounter while pursing the mysteries and still have political opinions? It is not like I am asking to be the Head of your esoteric tradition...that would be the job of your favorite Big Name Occultist--all I am asking is to do is to be allowed to tell funny stories, to convince you to care enough about politics to get involved and at least vote, and teach you to be suspicious of anyone who claims to be the True Head of All of the Mysteries and Esoteric Traditions.

Obligatory apology about how we are misjudging you for the Numpty that you ain't.

Of course, it should be noted that I am on a few Banned lists. Because of my politics? Because I think numpties can learn? Because I mock Big Name Occultists and their traditions? Who knows?

And as such, I should be apologizing for my Offending Ways. Not that I am good at apologizes. The last one I write read something like this:

"On the behalf of the group, I would like to apologize for not recognizing that you are the most important person in the world. You see, we are bitter old hags who had to work hard for the little bit of recognition that we have received. We were not allowed to walk in with a sweet a** story, and declare ourselves the most important person in the world. No, we had to kill someone, and help someone else hide a body or two. This makes us happy little cynics. So when you walk in with your special snowflakish, all we want to flush your various body parts down a toilet. It is nothing personal--it is just how the world works. As a sign of apology, let me buy you a drink of poison."

Now imagine that I am apologizing for my wrong political and religious ideas.

Do you feel better?

No.

Well, I guess you are going to have to agree with your Fearless Leader and fire me as an occult authority.

Remember that you have to think exactly like your Fearless Leader if you want to become an Adept.

Prophets Visit (a new art series)

My latest art project is photographs of the Prophets and Sages and Gods of various religions visiting famous places around the world...because it is art, dammit! And maybe, just maybe a little bit of mystic mumbo-jumbo social / religious / political commentary about how the founders and deities of various religions are just tourists and really fun to hang out with...because I am insane, dammit! And before you scream Sacrilege! and Heresy! and Blasphemy!--remember that I grew up in the arms of Wicca, and other pot smoking hippy religious philosophies...because my parents allowed me to hang out with my aunt, dammit!

If you want to follow the art series, stalk me on DeviantArt...because I am a very humorous artist, dammit!

And remember for just a dollar a month, you can encourage my insanity on Patreon...because I have bills to pay, dammit!

Or you could just buy random stories and rants from me on Amazon...because I have a soapbox and I am not afraid to use it, dammit!

Three Prophets visit the Denver Broncos at Mile Hi.

In this installment, three Prophets (Moses, Muhammad, and Jesus) visit the Mile High city and decide to take in a football game at Sports Authority Field at Mile Hi. Knowing that the Denver Broncos are better than the Oakland Raiders, they dress accordingly. Go Broncos!

National Witch Trials Rembrance Day

Three hundred and twenty-four years ago, on March 1st, the Salem Witch Trials began....

....and today, someone thinks that we need a national holiday to remember this (and to teach people the truth about witches).

Seriously, someone has started a White House Petition petitioning Obama to create such a holiday.

And there is such a raging response to this petition.

Unfortunately, it is marred by bad spelling and grammar.

And Cthulhu hates bad spelling and grammar. 

And it overlooks the little fact that we already have a national holiday celebrating witches...

Full sized Baby Ruth and Butterfinger candy bars---you are awesome Mrs. Cleaver.

...and it is called bloody Halloween!

But anyways, I suppose that we should stop and give this petition some consideration.

B. W. of Litchfield, ME says that we can't express our religion without the influence of Hollywood's incorrect interpretation. Ok, fair enough. But does Hollywood show any religion, or any society, or culture correctly? And if so, maybe you want the White House to outlaw Hollywood instead.

They go on to add that our holy days can't be found on any calendar. Huh? Does this person not know of that remarkable book publisher called Llewellyn? I am quite sure that there are several calendars that not only list the Sabbats, but every moon phase.

B. W. whines that we have no national monuments paying respect to those who lost their lives in the name of religious persecution and bigotry (outside of the tourist attractions in Salem, Massachusetts). Uhhh....you do know that most of the witch trials was actually Christians claiming that other Christians were heretics and/or powerless people with land that some accuser wanted, right? And that most of these deaths happened in Europe? And that the numbers are sorely overstated by those who scream, "No more burning times!"? And that burning witches was not the normal punishment?

In fact, the Salem Witch Trials is more of a footnote than anything remarkable when compared to the European trials. Before the Salem Witch Trials, only a dozen witches were convicted and killed in North America. And only twenty-four executions occur at Salem. That is whooping thirty-six witches....and they were Christians and/or had beliefs that would not be classified as witchcraft by the modern witchcraft movement. Just because the term "witch" was used, it does not mean that they were members of our religion (in fact, modern witchcraft, more or less, starts in 1951---in England!).

And where other than Salem would you put a monument? Denver? Ohama? Seattle? Last time I checked, the only logical place for such a monument was....drumroll please...Salem!

So what is really going on here? What does B. W. really want? Well, I think that the most important sentence in the petition is "Our children do not learn about our history in school." So you want kids to be taught about witchcraft in schools, and that Christians are evil (I presume); but seriously, if schools did teach this part of history, they would be told that the Witch Trials actually have nothing to do with the modern witchcraft movement. Opps.

And the Boom Boom award goes to B. W. 

Yes, we are a "real people with rights!" And we have the right to harass the government for stupid things, including the right to insist that people believe our made-up history justifying the fact that we are a real threat to Christiantity, predating it and having been prosecuted for our beliefs, forcing the government to give us monuments and outlawing Hollywood portrayal of us.

And the government has the right, if it chooses to notice all our screaming, to tell teachers to teach our real history. Hmmm, maybe we don't actually want that.

Then again, what do I know---I am merely someone's mad uncle.

Should Merriam Webster Online Dictionary change their definition of Heathen?

Today in one of the many Facebook groups that I am in, someone shared a link to a petition demanding that Merriam Webster Online Dictionary change their definition of Heathen.

The petition demanding Webster change the definition of the word Heathen. 

So how bad is Webster's definition of Heathen?

First part of the Webster's definition. 

The first part is ok (I guess), and the second part is traditional. Many writers insisted that Heathens were uncivilized.

I just happen to know a worse definition of Heathen (from the 1982 edition of the Random House College Dictionary): "an unenlightened or barbaric idolater."

Oh look, the defintion of Heathen goes back to the 12th century. 

These "insulting" definitions have been in play for a long time. At one point, the term Heathen also applied to the Muslims. Today, it is more or less, everyone who is not a Jew, Christian, or Muslim. I guess that someone decided that the Muslims are civilized.

Definition by rejection of the Bible.

One of the complaints of the petition is that the definition is based on "rejection of the God of the Bible," a god that Jews, Christians, and Muslims share...uncomfortably, but it is the same baseline god if you follow the lines of transmission and origins of these three religions. They argue that Christianity (and the rejection of) should not be in the definition....which ignores why dictionaries get used in the first place--when using a dictionary, you want them to tell you the most likely ways that a word is being used (not some idealized seldom encountered in real life definition).

But look, it is a Christian definition of Heathen.

The synoyms include Pagan which is also defined by its rejection of the god of the Old Testament, New Testament, and Quran.

The definition of Heathen for kids. 

Yes kids, Heathens are uncivilized; Christian writers have been saying that for centuries. And writers do use the term to describe people who have no civilizations or wildly different ones.

Webster would like to know why you are looking up the word Heathen.

Can we at least agree that Webster asking why you are interested in the word Heathen is at least an attempt by them to stay current with its modern usage?

The two things that are to be included in the new definition of Heathen.

Gythja Dearbhla actually says in the petition that not only does they want the reference to the Bible removed, along with the insulting "uncivilized" definition, but they also want the definition to be "a convert of the Aesir and Vanir [ancient gods of the Norse religion]" and "a Norse polytheist."

(By the way, one of my favorite definitions of Cat is actually a definition by what it is not: Cat--not a dog.)

Here is your laugh out loud moment of the day. 

The best comment (for its humor value) was someone saying that "I agree whole heartedly with this action. I do believe the wording needs the approval of a heathen majority."

I presume that Scott Mattis means ONLY Norse pagans are to be consulted.

And this is where I have to ask, "Can you even get a dozen Heathens to agree what type of light bulbs to buy?" And what about all the non-Norse Heathens? Why don't they also get a vote?

As a writer and a scholar, let me be the one to break the bad news to you. Dictionaries reflect how writers actually use words, not how you think the words should be defined by your own particular religion. If religions were allowed to pick the definitions of words, we would get stuck with the following definition of Heathen (buckle in):

Heathen: an ignorant uncivilized person who absolutely is going to Hell for refusing to accept the one true God of the Bible.

And why would we be stuck with that definition? Simply because there are far more Christians than pagans and heathens in English speaking counties, both in the present and in the past. The definitions that Webster and Random House are using are not nearly as bad as the ones that we would get if a committee got to define the word to their satisfaction.

So how do we get the definition changed? Well, a petition is useless. What changes the definition of the word are writers using it in a different manner than it was previously used. So instead of signing a petition, go to Webster Online Dictionary and tell them about instances that Heathen (and for that matter Pagan) are being used in a modern sense of "someone civilized who believes in gods other than the Jewish Christian Muslim god." If enough people do this, they will add a new section to the definition reflecting its new use. Why? Because that is how dictionaries actually define words--by how people are actually using them.

(Please note that the current definitions will remain simply because there is a few centuries of usage that says that all heathens need to be saved by the civilizing force of the one true God. Also note that I am a Heathen and Pagan...not that it will stop you from calling me bad names in the comment section.)

Does Facebook ignore hate speech against pagans and wiccans?

Troll cat issues a warning that I might get burnt at the stake.

Lately, there seems to be a rash of hate pages on Facebook promoting violence against pagans, Wiccans, and witches. One even includes the words "should be burned." And Facebook has basically stated that they do not see the harm in such pages...because it is ok to joke about burning people who are not Christian (hey, it is a theory--and Facebook has not given me any indication that my theory is wrong). Furthermore, despite people reporting such hate pages, Facebook has left them up for all to see.

But I betcha that if you put up a page calling for the burning of Christians (even just the heretics) that Facebook would be taking down the page, and ban you in a heartbeat for your hate-filled joke.

And why? Because we all know that when your religion controls the largest percentage of people in the country that you can pretty much say what you want without any blowback while claiming that your religion is under siege by those silly and completely false religions that represent less than five percent of the population. (I am always amazed how quickly the Christians fundies seem to be able to get people and pages removed from Facebook, but us pagans can't get the time of day from FB.)

[The following is for the United States...which is probably half of the Facebook users in the world--yes, I know, more research is needed...but I am a blogger; I don't deal in facts!]

The smaller your slice of the religious pie, the more likely you are to be burned at the stake for defending your religious views.

As for the defense that such pages are meant as a joke, well there is a small fly in the ointment.

And that is--some people really believe that witches should still be burned at the stake because their god tells them to do so (in what has to be one of the most hate filled books of all time--aka the Bible).

I have met some of these people. And they have said this nonsense to my face. Even knowing that I am a witch. And worse, when I protest, they say, "We don't mean you--you are one of the good ones." Shades of Nazi Germany alive and well in the freedom loving United States--of course, I imagine that the 1938 version of FB probably would not see the harm of Hitler and his followers either and their jokes about the hated Jews; after all, the Nazis were a big percent of the audience back then, and you can't go against the majority--or at least, that seems to be the rule on Facebook.

Remember that it is ok to believe such nonsense and hatred aimed at pagans, Wiccan and witches because it is right there on Facebook (and if it still up, it does not violate FB's rules of usage, including the anti-hate speech clause).

For those who haven't signed it yet, there is a petition on Change.org calling for Facebook to quit ignoring pages that promote hatred and violence against pagans, Wiccans, and witches.

All materialistic magic is black magic

A spell involving a Jupiter Lightning Glyph and two monkeys.

Happy New Year!

And given that it is the first day of the New Year (2013), it is now time to make certain of my critics happy and issue yet another bloody annual disclosure statement.

This year's complaint--I do materialistic mundane magic.

Now why does this need a disclosure statement?! Well, according to some extreme opinions of some experts, you cannot do magic to affect the physical mundane world while also working on spiritual development. In fact, some of these experts believe that all mundane related magic is black magic...in other words, only spiritual development is white magic.

It won't be so bad, except that some of these so-called experts state that once you do mundane magic, you can never complete the Great Work. Ever. No matter how much time, energy, or lifetimes you spend doing the Work.

Therefore, because I do materialistic magic, and I started off doing material magic, I can never complete the Great Work...therefore, why are you reading this blog?

Now, personally, I believe that not only is this idea extreme, it is also wrong. Yes, I said--wrong. It is based on the idea that the material world is evil, and that the spiritual (heaven) is good. It is an idea that affects our entire culture, thanks to the ideas of Judaism, Christianity and Islam (all of whom inherited it from Zoroastrianism). Therefore, it is understandable hearing this from occultists who come from esoteric groups that require or emphasize one of these religions, such as most Golden Dawn groups.

The really sad part is that I hear this from pagans and Wiccans who are drawing inspiration from other religions that do not have this fatal duality.

And the really annoying part is that Golden Dawn enshrined this idea right into its Outer and Inner Order Oaths. Yes, you can be expelled from GD just for doing a simple money spell. It is better to live under a bridge homeless than do a spell to gather a little rent money in an emergency.

(Please note that in two of the Inner Order courses that I suffered though, I was required to do mundane magic--I am guessing that by the strict classic version, they would not be considered really Golden Dawn.)

Here is a hint for the Wiccans who believe in this duality--read the Charge of the Goddess which states off with: "Whenever you have need of anything, once in the month and better it be when the moon is full, then shall you assemble in some secret place and adore the spirit of me, who am Queen of all witches." How can you start an invocation like that, have no concept of heaven, and still end up with a severe duality that says the material world can never be spiritual?!

And for those of you who are curious, the BIORC does not view all materialistic magic as black magic (it is complicated determining what black magic is...but just because it is aimed at the material world does not automatically make it black magic), and spiritual development is tied to developing the mundane side of one's life at the same time. It is little things like that which will ensure that the BIORC is not considered Golden Dawn by everyone within ten years (if we are not already beyond the point of no return).

Of course, if you are really concerned about my behavior, you better tell Jason Miller that I am misusing one of his Jupiter lightning glyphs to try to promote evil monkeys. (I am quite sure that he has something to say about this subject.) And for the so-called experts, well, they are always right and I am always wrong as far as they are concerned, which is why you are supposed to be reading their blog and forum posts and not mine. Listen to their superior wisdom because I am busy making things up as I go along, and they have the experience of excellent teachers that I didn't have.

Happy New Year!

[Update: July 2013: Due to differences in sales expectations and business philosophy, in early July 2013, I ceased to be involved in the Turtle Monkey project.]

Swastika Rehabilitation Day?! Really?!

Here something that you do not want to see on the beach...even a New Jersey beach.

Last Saturday was the third annual Swastika Rehabilation Day...seriously, there is an organization that is trying to rehabilitate the image of the swastika. The International Raelian Movement (a Las Vegas based group) is trying to restore the Swastika as "a symbol of peace and good luck."

Personally, I think that this might be a lost cause. For the last twenty years, I have been searching for a symbol to replace the Hermetic Cross found in the Zelator (1=10) ritual...that says how much I think that the symbol, which original meaning was more positive, can be rescued from the dragging through the mud that a certain group of 20th century politicians subjected it to.

This is one of those times that I must say that the silly ideas that arise in Las Vegas should stay in Las Vegas.

Jail or Church

Starting next week, if you are a resident of Bay Minette, Alabama, and commit a non-violent misdemeanor, you can choose between serving jail time (along with paying any related fines), or going to church for a year.

Now, being a pagan, the whole idea of the ROC (Restore Our Community) program just gives me the screaming willies. It is right up there with politicans claiming that the United States is a Christian nation (implying that if you are not straight and a Christian, then you are not an American).

But I do understand where the community of Bay Minette is coming from, considering that it costs 75 dollars to keep someone in jail (your local costs may vary).

Nevertheless, as a pagan, the idea of the program brings up some importnat questions.

Here are the questions I have about the program:

What happens to those offenders who are already attending church every week?
Are all non-violent misdemeanors worth 52 church visits, and how was this decided?
Isn't this like making these new church attendees wear a scarlet letter that screams criminal?

I sure hope that Colorado communities do not install a law like this. I would hate to be sentenced to going to church for the crime of jaywalking and overdue library books.

Religions of the United States

Religions of the United States.

Ok, this may seem like a side-track to many people (especially those waiting for various part twos), but it is actually not a side-track. It is actually related to both topics.

The graphic above I found on Ananael's blog; he was talking about how Christians have been praying for the economy of the United States for the last deecade. Yeah, I did spit-take. You just can't help chocking when you realize that prayer has been involved in the slow death spiral of the last decade of the US economy.

Looking at the graphic, which shows the membership percentage of each religion in the United States, I could not help thinking about both part twos that are being awaited on.

What this graph has to do with the size of the Golden Dawn market? (skip down for Ouija part)

On the Golden Dawn market front, it is obvious that Golden Dawn Orders must cater to Christians and their viewpoint if...if...if they want a shot at the biggest section of the pie. After all (provided that you think that Roman Catholics are Christians), they represent 78.5% of the potential market.

Of course, this is assuming that the overall potential market for Golden Dawn memberships and products mirrors the overall population religious outlook.

There is a chance that those interested the most in Golden Dawn come from particular religions and sectors, and do not mirror the overall population figures in religious outlook.

But let's presume that the potential market for Golden Dawn mirrors the religious percentages for the overall population.

Now, what Christians find comfortable often other religions do not find comfortable. For instance, the idea that sheep go to heaven and goats go to hell (hehe) is not something that the pagan religions find comfortable, especially when own their gods are classified as demons. Heck, what Catholics are comfortable with Protestants are often uncomfortable with.

This does lead us to the possibility of product differentiation (a nice economy and business term) in the Golden Dawn marketplace. For instance, one Golden Dawn Order could focus on serving Roman Catholics, another on serving the needs of Protestants, and another on serving the needs of the Wiccan community.

Unfortunately, past experience makes this unlikely to happen, except on the small scale. The bigger Orders, and those who want to become big, tends to take everyone in...and then either alienates them or converts them to the religious and philosophical standards of the leadership of the Order.

Please note that I do realize that such differentiation goes against the advice given to the Neophyte...if you are a literalist. I am not saying that the other religions are bad, just that perhaps focusing primarily on different religious comfort zones would be a way to avoid a lot of the in-fighting that we see flaring up on occasion. It is lot easier to live and let live when you are interested in completely different sections of the market.

Teach respect for other religions; don't try to convert your membership to your religion. And be honest when you see someone of a religion that will find your emphasis unbearable and send them to an Order that they will be more comfortable with.

What does religion has to do with Ouija boards?

One of the problems with a Ouija board (a point I will be expanding upon in that particular part two) is the fact that there is a living human being(s) involved. In fact, without a living human being involved, an Ouija board would do nothing.

(Ok, this ignores really powerful entities---but what would they be using a Ouija board for if they were so powerful that they could communicate without one? If you can move the planchette without using a living human being's help, then you are powerful enourgh to get their attention in other ways. For me, this is one of the reasons that the whole Secret Chief myth seems rather shaky.)

Now, the majority of people who would be using an Ouija board would be Christian (definitely counting Roman Catholics as Christians for this thought). Which means that there is a Christian component to the operation and interpretation of Ouija board activities.

Please note that I will expand on this thought in part two of the Ouija board series. I merely wanted to briefly mention this as a factor along with this particular graphic. But for those who want more, consider this---would a pagan view some of the entities that communicate though Ouija boards as hostile (and demonic) as Christians encountering the same entity?